Interview with Marc Herstand

LF: I think it's going. LF: If you can start with telling me a little bit about who you are.

MH: Sure. Well my name is Mark Herstand, and my professional work, I'm a social worker, and the executive director of the National Association of Social Workers Wisconsin chapter. We represent 2,100 social workers statewide. I'm the registered lobbyist and I do lobbying at the state capitol and organize members. We take positions on legislative issues. We get involved with political campaigns and do a lot of other things to support our members. Our office happens to be directly across the street from the Capitol. So it was an incredible time these last three months being there. We do have members of our association who are union members and early on in the process, they asked what 00:01:00we're going to do, so I was able to convene a meeting of our legislative Social Policy Committee. Fortunately, they were meeting right away, and I got them to go ahead with us, being willing to take a position in opposition to the Budget Repair Bill both for the union busting thing and also because of the impact on Medicaid and poor clients, which we were both concerned about. The union busting thing was important to us, aside from the fact these members called us, because one of the things I do in my job is I help social workers who call me or email me, primarily call me, who have ethical and practice dilemmas in their work, and some of them are in danger of being fired or disciplined because they stand up for clients, some who have been fired because they are no protection in their work and others who were not fired because they did have some union protection. 00:02:00So, social workers, part of our code of ethics says very clearly that we need to work to improve our agency's policies and procedures and our clients come first even before obligations to the agency. So social workers have an ethical obligation to put the clients first and to work to improve their agencies. And unions can protect social workers and other workers from being fired just because they stand up for their clients.

MH: So, for that reason, we were very supportive of the protests, and we did take a stance on this area. I put something immediately on our website, and we sent an e-mail to all of our members asking them to ask their state Senate representative to vote against the Budget Repair Bill. Now, it was pretty 00:03:00amazing to see the protests start. And they just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger both inside and outside the Capitol. I think that the most amazing thing for me, you know I've been at NSEW for eighteen and a half years across from the Capitol and you know I'd go on the Capitol numerous times you know to lobby different issues and sometimes just to walk through the Capitol just to get the other side when it's cold outside but I've been through the Capitol, you know, numerous times and worked you know with both Democrats and Republicans on different issues--some affecting clients, some affecting the profession. But to go into the Capitol and to be in the Rotunda with thousands of people there chanting, sometimes singing, was just an unbelievable experience. I just--it's 00:04:00one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had in my life to, when I'd go in there, and just see the thousands of people and to see how people took over the capital. It's just incredible. All the posters that are up there, the creativity the posters, the fact that people, you know, they took over. There were sections that were for families. There was food delivered, you know, Ian's Pizza, the famous Ian's Pizza, that had to close their operation to the public because they had calls from I think something like fifty states in twenty countries eventually picked up on that. And I would see pizzas being delivered there and just to see the diversity of people with the protest day after day and see the diversity of people. I'd see home health care workers and cops and the firemen, who had their I think it was like a Celtic Scottish band that would play and 00:05:00they'd march up State Street. And the thousands of teachers that came and just the fact that they closed the Madison Public Schools for three days which, I was just blown away by that, because we first moved here I've been on the job 18 years we first moved here thirteen years ago they closed for one day and that was like a big deal but to close for three days and then have teachers from around the state because I have contacts with other social workers and hear about that and actually drove up one day to Wausau and found out they had been closed there. It was just incredible and to see thousands of people around the square marching around the square and then the people, as I said, walking up State Street chanting and then the chants that are becoming part of our culture here.

MH: It's just incredible and now, well, you know, the big chant about "Tell me 00:06:00what democracy looks like! This is what democracy looks like!" There's buttons like that and what you see right now around the square you know there's just a few protesters around there every day but you have people actually honking the horn to the tune or the rhythm of "This is what democracy looks like!" I mean, it's this culture that has come here, and there's T-shirts now being on sale and buttons. And, the chants, I remember when I was in Wausau speaking, it was during the protest time, and one of the people who attended my session said that she had gone to a protest It might have been in Wausau actually and her six year old or seven year old was there with her and she said to her seven year old, and her husband came home, and she said to her seven year old, you know, whatever her name is, "What's disgusting?" And the seven year old says "Union Busting!" So I mean that's part all these chants it just became a part of the protest culture. "What's disgusting? Union busting!" You know, "kill the bill!" And the 00:07:00signs and the buttons, which I have, I have all these buttons from there: "kill the bill!" And then the other thing that really shocked me was the level of acrimony and hatred towards Governor Walker. I have never seen this level of anger and hatred ever before, you know, in my years here. Now I mean I was, during Vietnam, you know, I was in high school and maybe a year in college, you know, there was that there then. But I've never seen it since then. It's unbelievable the amount of anger that people had towards Walker and the hatred that they had, a visceral hatred, was just amazing.

MH: Albeit, people are very peaceful. One of the things that's a real tribute 00:08:00to the protesters, and I think of the state of Wisconsin, is despite the fact we had tens of thousands, even a hundred thousand on the last big protest and seventy thousand on the one before, and was at both of them, everything was so peaceful, and the police were absolutely wonderful and I could see the people would thank the police. I mean there were a few times it got a little tense but people realized the police were on their side and there were people marching, the cops, you know, for union rights and things like that so. I also remember that the Dane County Sheriff David Mahoney was in the papers saying that he asked his officers to exercise extreme tolerance which also Chief Charles Tubbs, who I had recently had contact with because of a lobby day we had there, also instructed people, so it was a really wonderful experience in 00:09:00democracy--grassroots democracy--because you had thousands of people inside the Rotunda, deafening sound. They were drumming there. I remember one time I was there they actually had some musical instruments. I think people are playing trombone or the trumpet, and they're doing, you know, either the Star Spangled Banner or America the Beautiful and people were singing along. And so there's singing going on, but there was the constant chanting there and seeing the people sitting in. I remember seeing a lot of teaching assistants. I went up to the second floor near the assembly chambers and I saw these people sitting in there, trying to prevent people from going in. Now, there was another entrance there. But it was like "wow this is unbelievable." I mean, this is real protest stuff going on. So the constant presence there day after day and the chanting and just the experience and all the posters. I think the other thing that was 00:10:00really incredible was the marchers day after day, the creativity, and the good humor that the Wisconsin people did in the protest and even kind of the way people dressed up, and pantomime, and do things with the Koch brothers, pulling marionettes of Walker and Fitzgerald. And somebody came up with "This is Fitzwalkerstan." You know, these little things that they came up with about--very creative-- you know the Fitzgerald brothers and Walker and Stans, you know, like the Stans, Afghanistan or Kazakhstan, you know, kind of combining, the creativity. It was kind of like political theater that people did was amazing and the signs. I remember when the teachers are coming out and they are saying things, like you know, "We teach our kids to not bully. Stop bullying, Governor Walker." There are a lot of things about bullying that came out in the signs that were part of the demonstrations, but there, you know, 00:11:00although the unions did have signs that they put out there, there was a tremendous amount of individual creative signs people made themselves. And I just hope that, we're doing oral history today, that people took pictures of that. I think there are. I think they did take them. They're amazing. A lot of these things were in the Capitol but to see the Capitol, to remember it, because now everything's gone to remember the Capitol, where there were things posted everywhere--all over the Capitol. And there are even things about, you know, this Twitter thing and Facebook to keep on top of things. It was just incredible. I mean, there's nothing like I've ever experienced like that. It was like the people's revolution took over the state capitol. It was like really the people's house and thousands of people would come in and they'd stay there.

MH: People stayed overnight, you know, I never did that, but I went there 00:12:00different hours and took people in. You know, I joined many of the protests inside and out just to experience it. And I visited some of the Fab 14, the 14 democratic senators, offices to thank their offices for that. One of the other history things that people should put in is what life was like for senators but also their staff. I got bits and pieces. Some of the staff apparently worked like sixteen hour days in the office trying to keep up. They got twenty thousand e-mails and they, you know, while the bosses were in Chicago to try to flee away from the harassing Tea Partiers, the staff at the office were fielding all these e-mails and these phone calls and helping the protesters. They were there all 00:13:00night. I mean, they put in an unbelievable number of hours. It was just an incredible experience. Someone needs to write that story too, about the experience of the staff to the Democrats as well as the Democrats themselves. So I went in there, you know, to thank them for what they were doing while they're there. And then we, one of the things we did recently after the protests is--we have a south central branch, which is part of NESW. We include Dane County and all the counties down to the Illinois border. We had a social work event and what we did is, fortunately, it took place after the senators were back because we decided to give our public service award to the four Democratic senators in the south central branch who had gone to Illinois to fight the Budget Repair Bill. We had told the offices "well, this is great, but we don't know if they'll 00:14:00be back," but, fortunately, they just came back the week before. Or maybe four or five days before, and so we honored them at this event at the Capitol, and three of them came. It was really neat to hear their stories. And they were really appreciative of the support they received during this time. Then we honored a fourth senator up in Green Bay for our north east branch.

LF: You talk about that there was so much anger yet it was very peaceful I'm curious how did the people express their anger? MH: Through chants, through political theater, through the signs that they did. I mean, this is where the whole recall thing just popped out of nowhere. That was another amazing thing that all of a sudden people were starting to talk about recall. And first I'm thinking "well, whatever, you know, this is not going to go anywhere," and of 00:15:00course, now, we know: yeah it is. For the Senators, there are already two, as we speak today, two Republican senators--there's already enough signatures for a recall. My guess is that there will be at least two more of the Republican senators and maybe more. I've been in communication with some of the people on Capitol, even today, when we had our lobby day so that kind of thing. But I think that the, I mean, the people also had an opportunity to speak. One other thing that happened there is that there was-- you had big rallies and, the other thing I remembering too is every major labor leader in the country came to Wisconsin--everyone. And that was just--I mean the head of the Teamsters. They all came here. It's just incredible, so I heard them inside the rotunda, I heard them outside. They all came here, but in addition, which is very cool, they had average people speak too at all these events. And it wasn't until much later 00:16:00they had any politician speak. And then later on I also observed that when they closed the legislature-- closed the Capitol, which is not cool. They weren't letting anybody in. They actually had bullhorns around. And anybody could speak who wanted to.

MH: So I think people had an opportunity to express their anger by the fact that the police and the sheriffs all exercised extreme tolerance. They allowed people in to the Rotunda. They are allowed to protest. They allowed them to chant. They allowed them to sleep over. That's beautiful. Tt really was. There's a wonderful thing that they did, and that's one of the ways it kept peaceful. I think there's something about Wisconsin's people that we tend to be more 00:17:00peaceful too. I mean I was just very impressed by the civility of the protestors, and also there was a deliberate attempt among the protests to keep it peaceful. And there are signs around saying "Keep it peaceful. This is peaceful." There are signs around there. And people were saying that too, despite the fact that Governor Walker was quoted saying they had thought of trying to get instigators to cause it to go violent. Which is another creditable story. This is unbelievably amazing experience, and I have two interns in my office now--one from Eau Claire and one from Madison. I said you could not have picked a more exciting time to intern in my office. And one of the interns--I said "I want to leave the office and go across the street. You've got to experience this." So she did. She went inside the Rotunda. It was amazing. I mean, for them, it was an incredible experience. LF: Yeah. MH: For both of 00:18:00them to see what was going on, and to go the protests. But I think that the fact that people are able to express themselves, and they're able to march and protest--that kept it peaceful and civil. And I think the police and the Sheriffs were very wise and prudent how they handled it. And the protesters themselves handled it beautifully too. So it was a really wonderful expression of democracy, what we saw here.

LF: Yeah, and how did you personally participate? MH: I went to a lot of the demonstrations inside and outside. Got buttons, t-shirts. LF: Chanted? MH: Yeah I did all that stuff. Some of my friends from Milwaukee came in, and we 00:19:00went these things together. We didn't organize and an NASW group per say (Nationalization Association of Social Workers). Although, there were social workers who did organize student groups, and I talked to some social work groups when I was at some of the protests. But for me it was more personal just going there--as social worker but also as an individual and participating in many of the protests and just experiencing that. Encouraging my interns to go there. I'd talk to some my colleagues around the country who were asking about what was going on. And people around the state, I would talk to them about that as well.

LF: Did you ever get up to the microphone? MH: I didn't organize to do that. I didn't do that. There were other people that did a fine job with that.

LF: Yeah. So what would you remember most about this whole experience or this time period? MH: I'll never forget the experience of being in the Rotunda. I'll never ever forget that. And the thousands of people there and the chanting. It's just a really emotional and moving experience being there. And then the marches and the cheering that people have walking all around the square. I mean, I'll never forget the two huge ones. The first one where--it was freezing out there, and the snow was coming down-- Hearing Peter Yarrow sing from Peter, Paul and Mary--that was a really beautiful experience there. The other thing--there 00:21:00are so many memories I have of this--I remember when I heard Jesse Jackson. Jess Jackson came many times. But the time that he came with the assembly people, I was really close to it, and they all spoke. I think it was for the first time that all the assembly people spoke. I have so many memories of this experience. Even, you know, even a You Tube video of--because I know a lot of these people, but watching this at home and the fact I knew these people-- when the Republican assembly, the speaker told the Democrats to come back at five o'clock for the vote, and then the Republicans start voting at ten to five, you can see on the You Tube. And then you see the Democrats coming in screaming at Republicans 00:22:00because Republicans are trying to get the vote before they came in. And just watching that whole thing on the You Tube video was just incredible. I talked to some of the Democrats who experienced that and it was quite interesting--some of the Democratic assembly people what their experience was. You know, they were very angry, very very angry about how they were being treated. And I guess again the thing that most disconcerting about this thing--and there's a lot of neat things-- but the most disconcerting thing is what this did to-- now, saying how civil it was on the one hand-- but the disability in the legislature and the anger between the Democrats and the Republicans--I've never see this before, this level of it. That intense anger that people had, you know. The governor-- 00:23:00it's totally Walker's fault. He basically divided this state more than it has ever been divided between the Democrats and the Republicans. It's pretty vicious, some of the things that happened. And some of the shenanigans that the Republicans pulled to try to get the thing.

MH: Now it's in court right now. And then just talking about some of the viciousness. You and know the Judge Maryann Sumi who made this decision. About a week after she made the decision--she stopped the implementation of the collective bargaining thing because Republicans violated the open meeting rule. The Republican Party of Dane County put out this vicious character assassination press release that when my administrative assistant showed it to me I said "this 00:24:00has got to be a joke, no public party would do this." It was all about this leftist Maryann Sumi. And she goes to these gourmet stores owned by her leftist friends and she goes to cocktail parties with her leftist friends. And she had to take the position is she did it because she wouldn't any friends in her leftist Madison, and her son is a leftist activist too. I mean it was so bizarre. I said "this cannot be real!" So the kind of viciousness that came out and between the Democrats and Republicans in un-Wisconsin to me. It's not like Wisconsin at all. It was kind of disconcerting--really disconcerting--and it's really because of the governor and he did all those things. He made no attempt to reach out to communicate to kind of bring people together at all. And he put the Republican leadership--I know the Republican majority leader, and I have no 00:25:00respect for him because I've had other dealings with him. His brother might be a little better, but they put him in this really bad situation, and they've acted just terribly-- forgetting about the rules, forgetting about open meeting rules. Fortunately Judge Sumi has put a stop, a restraining order for now on that. So that's the disconcerting thing about what's happened. I just are so, so many memories of this experience. It's just an amazing kind of feeling to have been through it.

LF: Do you foresee a resolution? MH: [laughs] Well, interestingly, the protests were all about the collective bargaining thing that came out of the Budget Repair Bill, but the budget bill that Walker came out with was even worse than 00:26:00the Budget Repair Bill. The cuts. I mean it's basically--it could change this whole state. Terrible cuts to the poor and low income. And public education, which we treasure in this state, it's one of the best in the country. Massive cuts to public education. Cuts to transit to help the poor people. Cuts for childcare for poor people. I can go on and on about that. So the thing is--and I was talking to a state representative today-- this state swung as far to the right as it's going to be, and now we've got to push the pendulum as far to the left as we can so that the Democrats can take back some power because right now Republicans have total power. And they can do whatever they want. And this horrible budget that's going to go into effect. But with the recall elections if the Democrats can possibly take back three Senate seats and swing the Senate 00:27:00back to them, even if maybe they take two, it'll start changing the dynamics of the state and maybe make some other Republicans more nervous and if you change the dynamics of that, then they will tend to put a brake on the more extreme members of the party and maybe the Governor. Because they know they can lose their job. So basically, to me, it's almost like what we experience with George Bush being 8 years in office and all the damage he did to this country how long it's going to take Barack Obama to turn it around. The same, unfortunately going on now. Walker is really doing terrible damage to the state with the budget repair bill with the collective bargaining and particularly with the budget bill that just cuts everything affecting poor people, the middle class, and there's 00:28:00no shared sacrifice.

MH: And so what we have to do as advocates and--we have a PAC, not a big one--but we have to do our part to recall as many Republicans as possible so that if we flip the Senate back to the Democrats at least they can stop a lot of bad stuff. The budget will have already gone through, but they can stop really bad things and then we're hoping that in 2012 we'll continue that. And I don't think know if they can quite take back the Assembly because they are so far below. But the Republicans just swept that. The Democrats were in control of both. But maybe they can make huge gains there too. So we basically have to build to get power back. It's all about power and influence, and we have got to work this politically. I mean we can also do what we did today, we had three hundred thirty five social workers in Madison to talk to people and we have to 00:29:00work in coalitions around the state which we're doing to influence people. But the political stuff is really critical because if they feel nervous about that they'll be more inclined to listen to the constituents. So we need to kind of organize politically number one and also speak out on these issues and get the message. Some Republicans are starting to have second thoughts about some aspects of the governor's budget, so I think there will be some changes. I met with the Republican Senate staff today. It's part of Lobby day, and he was pointing out a few things where some of the Republicans have had concerns about some of these things. So we have to basically keep pushing back both politically with the recalls and also speaking out on the issues and then, since Wisconsin tends to be a swing state, swing it back the other way. And so that's what we 00:30:00have to do and I think over time hopefully we can do it because we need to.

LF: So for people in the future that listening to this, what do you think that you learned the most from it or what could people in the future learn from this whole experience? MH: You have to take a stand. This is something I said when I honored the Democratic Senators, if I can remember the words I said , something like, "extraordinary challenges call upon extraordinary responses." And that's 00:31:00what the Democrats did and everybody else did in the state. The left their work, and they came to Madison. They rushed to the Capitol, and they spoke out and they demonstrated. And they basically stopped what they're doing normally in life. And it's really incumbent for us all speak out when terrible things happen. And people did do that, and they took a major stand. The Democratic senators did by leaving the state and taking a stance on collective bargaining. And all those tens of thousands of people who came to Madison day after day from all over the state. People need to take a stance and stick their neck out. When you have a major challenge, if you stand up for what is right and stand up and 00:32:00fight for what is right, you can have an impact with other people. So people basically need to do that when there's an injustice. Basically stand up for what is right, put aside your daily life, and take a stance. That's what happened here.

LF: Anything else that I didn't ask you that you'd like to share? MH: No, I don't think so. I can think of anything. LF: OK, great, Thanks.