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00:00:00 - RF discusses his decision to accept the position of president of the
University of Michigan.
00:03:20 - He was surprised and saddened when he heard about the bombing of Sterling
Hall. RF describes the reaction to the bombing at Michigan.
00:05:17 - RF evaluates his tenure as chancellor at UW and lists his accomplishments. He
gives his final impressions of his experiences at UW.
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00:00:00
Robben Fleming (#538) Transcript BT: O.K. "Could you keep it going, or . .
. " RF: Yeah, "can I keep it going, or will I end up getting fired?", which was happening to presidents all across the country at that time, and on that score, I thought, "well, my chances of getting fired are probably as great here at Wisconsin as they are at Minnesota or Michigan, if this stuff is going to continue." I was clear on that. I knew it would end, because I'd had enough experience with movements to know that they lose their momentum over a period. They couldn't carry on. But I also knew that it was going to last for awhile. It wasn't over with by any means, and you had the Vietnam War and you had the racial thing, and those are going to last. So, when I weighed the probability that I'd end up getting fired, I thought, "well, you know, that's six of one and half dozen of another. I'm exposed anywhere I go if I'm going to do that," and I did believe, sincerely, that I could handle most things -- that I couldn't deal with the wild card -- if somebody bombed something. You know, I can't deal with crazy 00:01:00 people, but if I deal with this in accord with what I believe is the correct philosophy for coping with this, I can survive 90% of this and -- BT: Ride out the wave of the -- RF: Yeah, and so, "let's give it a try." BT: Did Fred Harvey Harrington -- was he aware of the fact that you were meeting with Minnesota? RF: Yes. BT: These were pretty secret, otherwise, weren't they? RF: Yes, but I told him. BT: What did Harrington say? Was he in favor of you -- RF: He was -- well, he didn't want me to go, but Fred, who had aspired himself to be president for a long time, you know, was never discouraging to me about going. He told me as between the two, he hoped I would go 00:02:00 to Minnesota. Now why he thought that, I don't know, or why he -- I didn't want to go -- as between the two, I didn't want to go to Minnesota for three reasons: one was that I didn't want to go any further north (laughing). I was cold enough where I was; another was that I don't -- I didn't like to live in big cities. I like the smaller cities; and the third reason was that as between Minnesota and Michigan, it was clear that Michigan was much the greater university. BT: Yeah, a great university. RF: And therefore if I was going to do this at all, why -- why not go to the place that was the -- BT: Just a reaction here, and then I'll have a few wrap-up questions. When you heard of the bombing of Sterling Hall, were you surprised that that had come to that? RF: Yeah, I really was. I was surprised and very saddened, because I just didn't believe that that would happen. BT: In Madison, at least, it seemed to really deflate the movement. Did that have an effect in Michigan so much? RF: Well, no. What had the effect here of ending it -- well, that was a part of it. You see, I had been saying to the student group all along, "you know, this is going to get out of hand sometime on you, if you continue this kind of thing, because you can't control totally your own members." BT: Um-hmm, the wild cards, yes. RF: "You can't control this wild card, and some incident like that can get out of hand and when it can, comes all hell breaks loose, and you can't handle it and I can't handle it, and so you got to be careful that that doesn't happen." Well, and I 00:03:00 said, "you know, somebody gets killed, this is not -- we're not just playing around, somebody gets killed in these kinds of accidents." And not long after that came the Kent State thing, the Wisconsin thing, the Jackson State thing, Mississippi State, or whatever it was; there were four places that broke loose and there were killings. And boy, that really put a lid on things. The people woke up at that point, so that was the beginning, then, of the closing part of the real problem. BT: Looking back at your years at Wisconsin, what do you consider your most significant accomplishments at UW as Chancellor, or as -- yeah, as Chancellor, excuse me. RF: Well, I suppose that universally, the people who knew that period would say that probably the major thing was containing student problems and at the same time, protecting the rights of free speech and so forth. From my own standpoint, I would say that I got greater satisfaction out of the fact that I had believed strongly when I went into the position, that you had to have an alliance with the faculty; that you can't govern a big place like this where the tradition of faculty participation is strong, without involving them and without making it a real involvement. But I was also confident, for reasons I've already said, that you go into those meetings better prepared than anybody else, because you know more about the problem; you know more about what the possibilities are, and you've thought about it more, and if what you've proposed to do sounds reasonable, you can usually get the support, and that support is critical. BT: Now, one 00:04:00 of the other things a couple of people have said in terms of your accomplishments at the university -- and I don't know if you consider this an accomplishment or an issue or what not, so let me just say it: is that you clearly defined the role of the UW within the context of system; that you made a clear delineation between what the UW Madison campus' role was and the UW System. Was that something you thought about? RF: Yes, yes, it was, yeah. I hadn't thought about that when you asked that question; yes. From the very onset -- see, Fred and Clodius, when I talked to them originally, said, "this is real." That is, "we want the Chancellor to run this place, and we're going to see that that happens," and I said to them, and I said subsequently, "that's important to me. If you want me to come and you want me to take this position, then I want to be able to run the place," and they were very good about it, and it worked out and I do think that's important, because Madison is clearly the "queen bee" in the system. BT: Yeah, it sure is. RF: 00:05:00 And you couldn't let that be eroded. BT: Now, I've talked to so many people . . . I hope I'm not misquoting Leon Epstein, and if I am, please, Leon, forgive me, but I believe he said that one of the things about the Vietnam protest was that Harrington did stay out of it, pretty much, and that that, as much as anything, really helped to clearly define that there was a difference between central administration and the campus; that you were representing the campus at this point, and that Harrington actually did a smart thing by keeping out of that. RF: I think that's right, that's probably true. BT: Ah, last word. I always have a section called "last words", and simply, do you have any closing comments you would like to make about your -- well, actually three sort of careers at the University of Wisconsin? RF: No, except that my abiding affection for and admiration of the University of Wisconsin is very great. I enjoyed immensely my law school years there. I enjoyed the years when I 00:06:00 first came there, even though it was a period for me, a rather unique period, since I never intended to be in the university or a faculty member. It certainly was a learning period for me, but I found it was a climate and a location which I greatly enjoyed and ended up spending my life in. Very happily; you look back, you know, and you say, "Gee, all the unintended consequences. Here I was spending my lifetime in universities, never having intended to at all." I do think that the fact that I had all this labor background was a unique preparation. BT: Very much so. Yes, yes indeed. RF: For what happened on the campuses and that I like to think that, of course, if I had been there in a (quote) "normal period", that I could have been a very effective Chancellor or president in any event, but the fact that that did occur while I was there, I was obviously better prepared than most university presidents to deal with that because most university presidents had no experience in that kind of thing at all, 00:07:00 and were either afraid of it, or were -- would get mad, get angry at the insults, and really couldn't tolerate it. And that was probably true of most university presidents; they never had any experience of that kind, and to somebody like me, that was not only largely theater, but it was kind of fun, too -- BT: (laughing). I'm sorry . . . that just kills me when you say that. RF: To plat your strategy in return, you see? And so -- BT: Sort of like a chess game -- RF: Yeah. BT: Where the pieces were alive. RF: That's right, that's right, and so I didn't lose any sleep over it, and -- I worried about these things, but my worries would translate into my sitting down and thinking about: strategically, how do I handle this now? Here's what they're doing . . . what do I do? BT: Yeah, that's fascinating. RF: And if I do it that way, what will the problems be, and if I do it this way, what will the problems be, and what is my objective? Well, my objective is to preserve the freedom of speech and the openness that the university must have in allowing people to express views that are unpopular and so forth, but containing the violent aspect of it. How do I do that? The conclusions I reached, of course, were largely conclusions I had reached as 00:08:00 a result of all this experience in the labor field. BT: Yeah, what's bread in the bone kind of -- RF: Yeah, yeah. BT: Thank you for sharing with me and with people who listen to this tape your career at the Industrial Relations Center, or at the law school first, the Industrial Relations Center, and as Chancellor. I told you the other day that my dissertation had been on James Bryant Conant, and his autobiography was called My Several Lives. I think that would fit your career as well, so -- thank you very much for your -- this interview you've done, Mr. Fleming. RF: Well, thank you. I've enjoyed it. 00:09:00 00:10:00 00:11:00 00:12:00 00:13:00